Another name joins the ever growing list - Andrew Symeou

Marshall and Wythe(Cross posted from Alfred the Ordinary at vox)

While the media make a big fuss about the 42 days detention without charge, yet another individual joins the list of those who can be held for 18 months without charge and this with little fuss, except, of course, by him. So another of those small changes take place as we become absorbed by the European Union government with few taking any notice, understanding the change or even caring. 

 

 


Who will be next? If you are taking a holiday in mainland Europe, this summer, it just might be you, so be warned.

 

Now to the case of Andrew Symeou. Last July, Jonathon Hiles, 18, of Cardiff, died after he suffered head injuries in a club on the Greek island of Zakynthos.

 

According to The BBC:

 

Mr Symeou, a student at Bournemouth University, was arrested on June 26 at his home, after a European arrest warrant was issued by Greek authorities. His passport was also seized by police.

During the short hearing John Jones, for Mr Symeou, said Greek police had obtained witness statements using force and he believed Symeou could not expect fair treatment if he was extradited.

Mr Symeou's solicitor, John Tipple, said after the hearing: "For justice to be done it needs to be done here."

Until today, Denzil Hiles, 58, of Cardiff, Jonathon's father, has kept quiet about the case, but has felt pressured to speak out as he struggles with the media coverage surrounding the man accused of his son's manslaughter and his fight to avoid facing a trial in Greece. This has put his family and Jonathon's girlfriend under immense stress and some family members have criticised him for not speaking out. According to David James of The South Wales Echo:

 

It is being treated as a test case about new EU arrest warrants, which allow suspects in serious crimes to be extradited to the country where they are alleged to have committed the crime, without evidence being presented first in their home state.

According to the European Commission this has been "made possible by a high level of mutual trust and cooperation between countries who share the same highly-demanding conception of the rule of law". ...

Mr Hiles said: "If Andrew doesn't go to Greece, he doesn't get a trial and Jonathan doesn't get justice. They are making an issue that isn't there. They are making this into a trial by media about whether he goes back but it's got nothing to do with that.

"We are all part of the EU. We abide by the same kinds of rules and regulations. If Greece's record of human rights is so terrible, why is it part of the EU?

It is here that Mr Hiles completely misses the point. We do NOT abide by the same rules, or didn't until recently and few have noticed the change. In the UK, we used to have that subtle distinction between the European Napoleonic system of justice where you are presumed guilty until proven innocent, and the UK Common Law system where you are presumed innocent until proven guilty and therefore could not be held for more than 72 hours, 28 days, 42 days, without charge.

But like the 10p tax debacle, we probably wont notice or care until it affects us personally. remember this when you are locked up in a mainland European prison for 18months, without charge, without any redress or appeal. Like many Brits, you might just be released at the end, again without charge or any comeback. Welcome to your new friendly E.U. Goverment!

 


Nigel Farage highlights the plight of Andrew Symeou.

 

(Symeou is due back in the City of Westminster Magistrates' Court on August 12 to face an extradition hearing.)

http://www.justice-for-symeou.com/

[The comments section is now closed for this item]

Posted on 15 Jul, 2008 by ethelred

Filed under UK Parliament


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Comments


How can our goverment extradite this young man without greek or British police asking where he was on the night of the incident!It seems under new extradition treaty we are presumed guilty on say so of any EU police force and we then have to prove our innocence in a foriegn country in a foreign court in a foreign language!!!
In Andrews case to be told pos.18months dowm the line 'Sorry we made a mistake'.
How does Andrews parents put their 19yr old boy,s life back together after spending 18months in a greek prison!Where do the Hiles family go after persueing the wrong peron because the greek police trumped up false allegations against a young man who wasn't even at the club the time the incident happened!
This should not be happening to any British citizen. Our Goverment should and must protect our basic Human Rights.LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE FIRST THEN DECIDE IF THERE IS A CASE TO ANSWER!
Dont let the incompetent Zante police ruin a British families life!!
  Teresa Johnson // 07 Aug, 2008 / 04:58:02
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Teresa, you've got it in a nutshell, except our Government seems devoted to handing over power to the E.U. and will not listen to the electorate. We are only just beginning to wake up to what this means, in so many areas of our lives, not just in E.U. "justice". One day we will ask - "How did this ever happen?" But it will be too late. It is almost too late now.
  ethelred // 07 Aug, 2008 / 05:05:54
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I agree completely, its ridiculous how the UK can share a treaty with these kinds of countries. Cases like these shouldnt be happening. I feel sorry for the Hiles because if the greek emergency services were better he would probably be alive now, or maybe if the police were not so bent then they would have found the actual culprit, not a random person from a picture. Absolutely discusting, i hope they rot in hell.
  Charles Watson // 13 Aug, 2008 / 05:49:04
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Excuse me but how do you know whether or not they have the correct culprit? I certainly don't know, he could well be guilty. If he does not face trial nobody will ever know if he was guilty or innocent and no justice will ever be served to Jonny. If he is innocent he will be cleared then they can search for the actual culprit, if he is guilty then he must be punished for killing Jonny. I believe he should face trial in Greece 100%, i cannot understand why there is any question as to whether he should or not! It is Greece, they are not barbarians who will do anything differently to English police. This whole campaign sickens me, Jonny's family have already been through more heartache than anyone should ever have to go through.
  Jen12 // 14 Aug, 2008 / 06:33:28
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Jen12 wrote: "It is Greece, they are not barbarians who will do anything differently to English police. This whole campaign sickens me, Jonny's family have already been through more heartache than anyone should ever have to go through. "

Jen, I think you have missed the point. I would also like to see Jonny's family get justice for what happened to Jonny, but the English idea of justice and the Greek idea are very very different. Greece's, or much of the EU's idea of justice means that someone can be locked away from 18 months or so on a mere suspicion. Since 2004 this EU Arrest Warrant has enabled a judge or prosecuting magistrate anywhere in the EU to order the automatic extradition of a British citizen on the basis of suspicion alone, without having to present the dossier of evidence required under our current system.

In England, suspicion alone is not enough. One of the reasons for this particular debate is that some of the so called evidence is judged by Andrew Symeou's lawyers to be very suspicious, but he has a right of judicial review over this warrant. He is using that right. On 30th September, it seems to me, that for the first time some of the suposedly suspect evidence will be aired properly in court.

As far as I can tell, Andrew Symeou is asking for only one thing and that is justice as we in England understand justice. I do hope that you and the Hiles family will be doing exactly the same, seeking justice, but in the English context. We have fought hard over centuries to derive a system of justice that, whilst it isn't perfect, is far far better than the form of 'justice' that locks someone away for 18 months or more, without charge, on mere suspicion.
  ethelred // 14 Aug, 2008 / 08:01:11
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People who feel that Andrew should be extradited ooze ignorance . They do not understand the situation, or infact know any thing about the situation, so should therefore not embarass them selves by throwing ridiculous comments around. Although it is understandable to be increadibly upset for the Hile's family, it should be noted that Andrew is a victim in this too.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE AGAINST ANDREW. IT IS A FACT!
So why on earth should he have to spend up to 18 months in prison, in Britain or Greece! Andrew wants to answer any questions the greek police have, through mutual assistance in the UK.

Now please, stop the Ignorant!
  Campaign // 14 Aug, 2008 / 08:36:10
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I am aware of this but non of it changes my opinion that he should be extradited. I appreciate that it must be terrifying for him but Jonny lost his life in Greece. Up to 18 months is their law, it was the law Andrew agreed to be subject to when he went on holiday there. Just as we all do wherever we go on holiday. I realise that even in your wildest dreams you would never expect this to happen to you but in this case it unfortunately did happen. While 18 months is a very long time, especially if you're innocent, it is the Greek law and the UK does not have any right to tell them their law is wrong. I don't think that it is fair to say it is merely suspicion as we do not know what evidence is or is not present, we only know what we are told and who knows what is true and what is not.
  jen12 // 14 Aug, 2008 / 08:40:39
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Do not call me ignorant "campaign". Just because i hold a different opinion to you does not make me ignorant. I disagree with everyone that has commented on here but i would never call any of you ignorant or any other rude name. It is wrong to say there is no evidence on here as that is something to be discussed only in court as it is just speculation.
  Jen12 // 14 Aug, 2008 / 08:52:00
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We have the greek and welsh case file, so know ALL the avidence and ALL the facts! i have PERSONALLY READ IT. therefore am in a position to say that if andrew is sent to greece it is a travesty and a discrase to this country.its not 'just the law'. you speak about 18 months in a greek prison as if it is easy time, and something he mearly has to do! how would you cope!? JONNY WILL NEVER GET JUSTICE IN GREECE.
  campaign // 15 Aug, 2008 / 03:38:04
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I can honestly say i would not wish 18 months in a foreign prison on a worst enemy, and i know that saying it is 'just the law' is not the best way to say it but unfortunately it is the reality! I send my hopes that Andrew would not have to wait 18 months for trial and that it is a quick process, and this is possible, but i do believe he should go. If he is innocent the trial needs to happen so it can be over for Andrew and the Hiles family. It is easy for you to tell me that there is no evidence but in all honesty even i could make up a load of fake claims easily and say i had seen it on the police file so i personally do not believe a word you say, i will only believe what the outcome is after a trial. As horrendous as 18 months in a foreign jail is it is nothing compared to how Jonny was killed and the effect it has had on everybody who new him. Lets not lose sight of the fact that Andrew will be free after this to get on with his life, his family will get him back, Jonny is dead and his family will never ever see him again.
  Jen12 // 15 Aug, 2008 / 03:59:13
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Jen12 You bring up some important points, IMO. My concern is with the wider issues involved with the UK being subsumed by the single party, non-accountable European Commission and the imposition of their laws which are substantially different to those to which we have grown accustomed.

You say “I am aware of this but non of it changes my opinion that he should be extradited.”

And I am in agreement, or would be if there were still extradition procedures in place with states that have substantially differing laws to our own.

From the Crown Prosecution Service web site
-------------
“Definition
Extradition is the formal procedure for returning persons located in one country to another country for the purpose of criminal prosecution, to be sentenced for offences for which they have been convicted or for the carrying out of a sentence which has already been imposed.”

Information (accused persons) The warrant must contain:
Particulars of identity;
Details of any other warrant issued in the requesting territory for that person;
Particulars of the facts;
Particulars of the relevant foreign law under which the conduct is alleged to constitute an offence;
Details of any sentence which may be imposed in the event of conviction.
Role of CPS
In Part 1 export extradition cases where the subject of the extradition proceedings has been arrested in England or Wales, CPS provides representation for the requesting judicial authority in proceedings before the English courts.
...
All export extradition cases are dealt with at first instance in City of Westminster Magistrates' Court by Special Crime Division of CPS HQ.
-----------------
More at http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal...

My non-lawyer understanding is this. So someone being extradited has his or her (I'll just use the generic 'he', from here on) case heard before an English Court, where the evidence is presented and he has the opportunity to defend himself. A decision is then made, based on the evidence.

The European Arrest Warrant changed all that. Now someone can be arrested on pure suspicion. I have read of cases of British people arrested because of a vendetta or mistaken identity where the aggrieved person knew the local police well enough to get a warrant issued, just on suspicion, and in the case of one British subject, spent 2 years in a Spanish prison before he was released, because it was mistaken identity. He had no right of redress, no apology – nothing.

I think you are saying that you would like to see someone sent to a Greek jail, for an unspecified length of time, which could be 18 months, or more or maybe less, without the testing of the evidence. If I am misunderstanding you, I apologise. To me that is not justice, not justice for him, and will not further the course of justice for the victim's family. Let the evidence be aired before we commit someone to a foreign jail. Maybe we can all agree on that?
  ethelred // 15 Aug, 2008 / 05:29:41
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Jen, I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "ignorant". All it means is that YOU DON'T KNOW. You are saying you don't believe it, but this is all true, THATS the reality. It can stay in England and the Hile's will know Andrew is innocent. There is EVIDENCE which PROVES his innocence. Do you not get it? You can't just say "thats the law." It is a disgraceful law which can ruin innocent peoples lives. You can't just say Andrew will be home in the end, but Jonny is dead. Andrew didn't know or ever meet Jonny, and certainly did NOT kill him. Jen, i suggest you stick to what you know, and some advice...stay away from politics its not your style love.
  Charles Watson // 15 Aug, 2008 / 21:36:16
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Do not patronize me by referring to me as 'love'. I am not pretending to be a politician of any kind, as much as i wish i could so i could stand up for the Hile's family. I am merely a member of the public putting forward an opinion that differs to yours, and i am perfectly within my rights to do so. I must say Charles Watson, you have a very similar writing style to Campaign, what with the random use of capitals throughout your post. I assume that you know there is evidence to prove his innocence because you just so happen to have seen the 'police files' as well?
  Jen12 // 18 Aug, 2008 / 04:26:40
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I have seen everything, When random people who don't know the story put across an opinion, it is not a very good one. If you saw the case files then im 100% sure your view would change. But you are a member of the public with lots of bias opinions so it doesn't matter.
  Charles Watson // 18 Aug, 2008 / 07:53:53
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Might i point out that i can quickly and easily find at least 6 differently named individuals claiming that they have seen the police file spread across many discussions about Andrew Symeou's extradition. Now to me that sparks alarm bells, in my view either it is one person going under different names or it is all a fabrication. Tell me, why is my opinion biased? I do not know Jonathan, his family, Andrew nor his family, i am a neutral individual who based her opinion on what i believe to be the correct path to justice, whether Andrew is guilty or he is innocent. Your opinion is likely to be more biased than mine as you are obviously very close to this case if you have seen the police files as you claim that you have. I seriously doubt they would have randomly picked on Andrew for no reason, but that is for the trial to decide. Not me, and not you.
  Jen12 // 18 Aug, 2008 / 09:18:12
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"I am a neutral individual who based her opinion on what i believe to be the correct path to justice, whether Andrew is guilty or he is innocent." Fair enough, but what I am saying is that there are alot of things that you do not know which I do. Therefore as I know everything and you know nothing, how valid is your opinion? Your opinion will change when the allegations we have made are confirmed. You believe a young 19 year old innocent boy who is meant to go back to university should be put in prison in Greece, when there is not only No evidence, yet evidence proving the Police manipulated and manufactured evidence against him. How would you like it if that was your son or brother? One random day police come to arrest him on suspicion of manslaughter when all the boy did was go on holiday and come back. Wouldn't everyone rather know the truth than hide behind a pathetic lie which the Greeks manufactured. But its ok because the truth will come out very soon. Im starting to feel positive that they will not send Andrew over. You have to admit, you must have an incling that the allegations we have made are true. If not, what has this sick world come to?
  Charles Watson // 19 Aug, 2008 / 06:51:45
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You have to understand that people cannot believe everything that they read. I am not legally involved in this case, will never see the police files, will never be apart of the extradition hearing, i have to trust that the UK laws will do what is right both by Jonathan and Andrew. Despite what you say i still have a few concerns about this case such as why did Andrew's holiday rep admit that he was involved in an 'incident' on the night Jonny was punched? I would hate for this to happen to anyone close to me, but i would want them to clear their name. All i can feel is that i would sooner have a son or a brother put in Andrew's position than Jonanthan's. I went on holiday to Zante when i was 18, 3 years ago, and while i know that their emergency services are not as smooth running as the UK's, especially the hospital, they are not anything like as corrupt as you would like to make out.
  Jen12 // 20 Aug, 2008 / 04:04:20
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You say you cannot believe everything you read, so why believe that the holiday rep said that? You contradicted yourself. We have a statement from the holiday rep and she actually confirms that the 2 boys were treaten very badly and also had trouble with the police! She even confirms one of them had a bruised up face. The media twist things, the incident they were talkin about was no even about Andrew....she was talking about the other boys who were arrested and beaten by police...THAT incident. Don't believe everything you read.....
  Charles Watson // 20 Aug, 2008 / 06:52:14
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Also, Jen how would you know about Zante corruption? Are you a Zante policeman? I am starting to think you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
  Charles Watson // 20 Aug, 2008 / 06:53:50
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See now these police file claims of yours and 'others' are not even keeping to the same story, now apparently one male had a 'bruised face' according to you, when another person who has apparently seen these files was going on about broken jaws etc. Hmmmm. You are just fuelling me further into not believing these claims. That was a particularly hypocritical and dumb comment 'am i a Zante policeman', so you can tell everyone they are corrupt and beat up people, then when i say in my experience they are not, i have to be a policeman to say that??! As it happens i do know what i am talking about, i have been to Zante, i have experienced their emergency services first hand!!!! This is what i am trying to get at! Their police force as you would like to make them out is not how they actually are in real life.
  Jen12 // 20 Aug, 2008 / 09:36:53
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Oh and the reason i do not feel that i contradicted myself is that i read the article about the travel rep back in May, also on this same article, even though a suspect hadn't been named nor arrested, Jonathan's dad new the suspect lived in Enfield. It turned out the suspect is from Enfield so clearly, there is a certain element of truth within this article. For your reference this article can be found on Wales online by Gerry Holt on the 29th May 2008. There is no public proof of your claims being true, or even any element of it.
  Jen12 // 20 Aug, 2008 / 09:54:14
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The good news is that all this will be tested in an English Court. IMO, there is little to be gained from accusation and counter accusation until then.
  ethelred // 21 Aug, 2008 / 04:05:46
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That is the good news. If anyone would like to read more about the issue, there is an article in the newest issue of private eye. The full story is in there. And by the way, the club rep said in her statement his face was bruised, but in actual fact he fractured his jaw. She is not a nurse and saw his face bruised. Anyway, i think this is enough now. The truth will come out in the end, very soon actually, and i doubt thoes with ignorant comments will be posting anymore.
  Charles Watson // 21 Aug, 2008 / 08:47:00
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This is absurd. Jen I am also a neutral individual, and to be quite frank I can't understand your logic. The father of Jon even said himself on the BBC he wasnt sure if Andrew did it. If all these claims the campaign are making are true, everyone needs to listen. It must be difficult being so deep in a hole for no reason with no one listening to you. I don't know if Andrew did it or not. But look into it first before sending him over to a foreign prison, because to be honest it sounds as though there is no actual evidence against him. Jen I think you knew the victim personally. Also Jen, i think your comments about Zante police are wrong. If you take your time to research previous cases then you will realise. Charles I would be love to read up some more about this case, I am going to buy the Private eye. The good thing about private eye is that they have to see sufficient evidence before publishing. Jen i suggest you do to.
  Sarah Richards // 23 Aug, 2008 / 09:46:33
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I did not know the victim personally, i have followed this case for so long, way before Andrew was arrested, i saw the heartbreak the death of Jonny caused and then the desperation that justice be done. Then Andrew was arrested and i admit by the time he was arrested i already had very strong feelings about the case. Maybe my opinion has been changed by this but i still feel this should go to Greece. You will find stories about British police as well that are not pleasant, but we trust them nevertheless. Nah, i won't waste my money thanks, evidence should be kept firmly within the four walls of a courtroom in my view. I agree with Charles Watson though, this is enough, agree to differ and all that.
  Jen12 // 25 Aug, 2008 / 14:32:16
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Ive read the Private eye article and I can honestly say that this is discusting. Evidence should be kept in a court room, but in cases like this the word needs to get out. That is the whole point of Private Eye, to publish articles newspapers can't. I can't believe the Greek statements are all word for word apparently taken by different officers! I didn't realise the cardiff police statements would be so different to the manufactured Greek ones. I didn't realise only 1 guy saw the punch and wasn't even sure which guy it was! I'm sorry I cannot agree to disagree if you cannot even allow yourself to read into the case! Absolutely no way this will end up in Greece, it will get thrown out! If you were a neutral individual then you would have far more liberal views. This needs to be big news because we cannot share a treaty with these countries when they are 30 years behind us!
  Sarah Richards // 26 Aug, 2008 / 19:22:41
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Without meaning to be petty, it is 'disgusting' with a g, not a c. I agree with you to an extent that word needs to get out, but only after the evidence has been seen in court, and a verdict has been read. Then Andrew, provided it is true, has an absolute right to publish his story, but i cannot emphasise how wrong i find it that it is published while it is an ongoing case. I have read into the case, i have already read every single thing you have wrote that you have read in private eye, it is all over these types of forums. Oh please, the UK do not rule the universe, we need these countries on our side, and cannot tell them that they are wrong or that they are 30 years behind us. I am not lying about being neutral, i just share a different opinion to you.
  Jen12 // 27 Aug, 2008 / 04:18:52
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Sorry for the typo, but you understood the word, it is disgusting. Your entire argument is petty! Symeou has the right to freedom of speech. Explain to me why we need these countries on our side? I think the EU is a complete mess! Fair enough I understand your friend is dead, so why back up the country whos police force lead his family selfishly into the wrong direction. Is there any actual evidence by the way implicating Symeou? I have never heard of any against him which is valid. That is why it is going to be thrown out.
  Sarah Richards // 27 Aug, 2008 / 06:02:47
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Sarah Richards understands the absurdity of this case. And the answer to your question sarah is no, there is no evidence implicating Andrew in the crime only manufactured statements by corrupt police, it most probably will get thrown out now, but lets wait for the Greeks response on the 3rd september.
This is the problem with the EU arrest warrent, police in other EU countries do not go by regulation. UK police can be corrupt but at least they go by the book. I also believe Jen is a friend of the Hiles family, it will all be shown in court on the 30th, unless the Greeks do not respond by the 3rd inwhich it will be thrown out. I don't see what the Greeks can respond.
  Charles Watson // 27 Aug, 2008 / 07:33:27
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The fact of the matter is, how can any one accused of a crime face trial if they have not even been questioned, whether it be in this country or in another!? That would never happen in Britain, so why should we send a British citizen off to another country to be put in that situation? It is not the law here or in Greece!
  Campaign // 27 Aug, 2008 / 07:33:43
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First off, I do not know the Hiles family, I live in England not Wales so how would I know them? Why on earth would I deny it anyway? Seeing as at least two of you three know Symeou I can't see how it would make me any more biased than you two. Regardless, i swear I do not know the Hiles family, i have no links with them at all, i am completely neutral in that respect. As Sarah is a fellow neutral individual i feel i can relate better to her as we are basing our opinions on what we are told so with the next bit i am talking to her, so please do not call me thick or ignorant again guys. My reasons are not petty i have just not explained very well, so here goes; the way i view this case is that it is terribly one-sided, the Symeou's have the case files (apparently) so the details they are releasing are highly likely to be edited to suit their campaign. Maybe they have released everything, i do not know, but as an outsider i feel i cannot sign a petition to stop a person, who may be guilty, going to trial when the only arguement i hear is 100% one-sided. If i am truthful with you i did not know that the new, faster EAW meant that we can be sent abroad without questioning until this campaign began, but i have taught myself about it and while i agree there are definite flaws that may well need attention, it is what we as citizens of the UK signed up to, whether we wanted to or not. What i cannot grasp is why Symeou believes he is above a law that millions of people are subject to, especially when the crime in question is so serious. This is why i am for the extradition of Andrew Symeou. I am not denying the fact that it is a horrible experience, especially if he is innocent, but a trial must take place. The crime happened in Greece, that is why he is in this position. I am sceptical because i am so aware that i have only heard one side of this story and that is Symeou's. I cannot honestly believe that the Greek police would get a list of everybody who was on holiday in Zante that week, close their eyes and randomly pick out Andrew to arrest. I imagine there is a lot more to this story than we will ever know. While i sympathise if Andrew is innocent, i still believe that the only way to clear his name is to go to court, it is unfortunate that this would have to be in Greece but this is where Jonathan was killed. If it is thrown out then so be it, but i personally feel that the only way Andrew can clear his name is by going to court.
  Jen12 // 27 Aug, 2008 / 10:02:59
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Once agin, a person in any country has the right to be questioned before being charged and sent to trial. The fact that Greece has not questioned or summond andrew to be questioned goes against their own judical procedure. There for how can a trial commence if a valid EU arrest warrent is not even legally valid.

Also, what Sarah says about the private eye is indeed correct, they do not publish articles unless they have seen evidence. They have seen the greek and welsh case file and have stated the facts briefly in the article.
  Campaign // 27 Aug, 2008 / 10:32:47
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Campaign. I believe that you are wrong. An EU arrest warrant can be issued without questioning as has been the case with an increasing number of 'victims' of this EU law.

Jen. I for one spoke out against the introduction of the EU arrest warrant, before its introduction, saying that we would end up with situations such as this (and others) so do not feel that I signed up to this or many of the other EU directives that are slowly changing our way of life into one that conforms with norms that are quite alien to us.

For what it is worth, reading these comments, I think there is a huge amount of agreement between the posters except on one issue. Whether or not Andrew Symeou should actually face 18 months or more in a Greek jail without the evidence being aired in a court room.
  ethelred // 27 Aug, 2008 / 12:14:43
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I don't understand why then just don't question him over here instead of wasting all this time, it could have been over months ago. I just feel that they should be careful with who they extradite. Up to 18 months is ridiculous.
  Sarah Richards // 27 Aug, 2008 / 12:42:23
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Apologies for genralising, however under Greek law a Greek arrest warrant can not be issued, except in limited cases, unless a suspect is summoned by the investigating judge to be informed of his rights and to put forward his defence. In Andrew’s case the greek lawyer is arguing that the Greek warrant is not valid, therefore the EAW is not valid.
  Campaign // 28 Aug, 2008 / 05:44:43
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Campaign, thanks for your clarification. It will be interesting to see if the Greek lawyer's case stands up, as EU law has primacy over EU states' laws. Therefore, in my limited understanding, the EAW trumps the Greek Law. The EU has put a lot of effort into establishing the Primacy of EU law and thus seems unlikely to back down over an issue such as this.
  ethelred // 28 Aug, 2008 / 06:05:55
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I read somewhere that another boy was going to be extradited to Greece in the past but didn't because he was not summoned. So by law they can't actually extradite Andrew. I doubt the hearing will even take place on the 30th. Lets see a greek response.
  Sarah Richards // 28 Aug, 2008 / 07:05:34
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Malcolm Hayes is the guy you speak of. He did not get extradited for the exact same reason. However in Andrews case there is so much more reason not to extradite. This was heard in the Westminster Magistrates court as well. So it is looking quite likely extradition will not happen.
  Charles Watson // 28 Aug, 2008 / 07:09:59
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I see, so that is looking positive then. I can't believe Greek police would do this, they didn't even issue the warrent properly? Crazy. I don't see the point of it even going to court if there no evidence. Maybe they are trying to find the Blonde guy through Andrew, they might think they are friends. If thats the case I think there will a different reason to go to court! All will come out soon.
  Sarah Richards // 28 Aug, 2008 / 07:31:03
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I would just like to voice a concern of mine, I am suspicious that actually Campaign, Charles Watson and Sarah Richards are the same person? The reason i am questioning this is because of the 'all will come out soon' at the end of Sarah Richards post. This, along with variants such as 'the truth will come out soon' and 'the truth will come out in the end' contained within posts from Charles. I then realised why i picked Sarah up on her spelling of 'disgusting' with a C, because oddly, i noticed Charles spelt it like that in an earlier post. I seriously hope i am wrong, else that is so low! I would also like to agree with ethelred's post, i had the same understanding on this matter and am not convinced Charles is correct, however, my understanding is not 100%.
  Jen12 // 28 Aug, 2008 / 10:45:30
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I do not feel the need to justify who I am in this forum, as it is not about me. Why not stick to the topic? The reason I say all will come out soon is because of the hearing on the 30th, that is what it is about.... I am sorry but I think it is ridiculous how you could accuse me of that. I have no contact with anyone involved in this case! You should understand that seeing as you are also a neutral individual apparently.
  Sarah Richards // 28 Aug, 2008 / 12:33:48
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You could be anyone, i don't know who you are! There are too many people on the forums all saying the same things, all having apparently seen the evidence etc i am concerned there is one person using different names. I have said all i feel about this case! I think that the subject is exhausted, bring on the 30th, may justice be done, whatever the outcome.
  Jen12 // 29 Aug, 2008 / 03:29:00
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I am close to the Symeou family and Campaign is the speaker of the whole campaign! I do not know sarah and have not said anything in the slightest to make you believe that. In all honesty I believe your insecurity in regards to who we are is because of who you are. You could be anyone, ive been honest of who we are. Your views are so narrow minded that anyone else with a different view to you can't be real? This is coming from a person who writes on the forum everyday with such strong views, you are probably one of Jonny's good friends! Being so interested in this case and refusing to read the Private eye just depicts your strong views. Justice will be done on the 30th, but definetly not for the Hiles family. CPS is waiting for a response from the Greeks, they should by tuesday. If there is no response CPS have nothing so it is thrown out.
  Charles Watson // 29 Aug, 2008 / 06:01:58
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So which part do the crown prosicution service want the Greeks to respond to? I doubt there is much they can do or say apart from look foolish. If it is everything, then i bet it gets thrown out. What else can they do?
  Sarah Richards // 01 Sep, 2008 / 06:07:52
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Yes they have to respond to everything. I doubt theres much they can say, its there in black and white and so obvious. They will look very foolish, a plan to make themselves look better backfired. I am starting to think it could be thrown out, i doubt the cps will have it!
  Charles Watson // 02 Sep, 2008 / 06:10:38
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Its friday and the Greeks were meant to respond by tuesday. No response, what a suprise. No response no case i guess.
  Charles Watson // 04 Sep, 2008 / 19:44:06
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Just to let all know that the private eye article is now on our website http://www.justice-for-syme... There is also the skeleton argument for thoes interested. Friday 12th and no response from Greeks.
  Charles Watson // 12 Sep, 2008 / 14:02:27
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http://www.justice-for-syme...
  Charles Watson // 19 Sep, 2008 / 05:35:50
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18 pages of skeleton argument well read! Outrageous! I can't believe that we share a treaty with countries who do these kind of things. I still don't understand how a nutural individual wouldnt want to look at both sides of a story! Still no response? Jen seemed to have given up, she doesn't have to "waste her money" now because the article is online and extremely eye opening.
  Sarah Richards // 21 Sep, 2008 / 19:39:14
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No I have not given up, i just got fed up of arguing as to whether I new Jonny or not! As much as you all want to believe I did, regrettably I did not. I have read the skeleton argument and private eye (i am not sure how you think it was eye opening seeing as it is a regurgitation of everything Campaign and Charles have already said) so I am interested in both sides but I still cannot get past the fact that it should not be available for me, and the rest of the public to read. While i feel incredibly sorry for Andrew if any of these arguments for him are actually true i would unfortunately never be able to see him as an innocent man unless the courtroom says so. I feel the same about any case, not just Andrew's, i feel that whether innocent or guilty, it needs to be decided in court. Sorry but i really think that it is shocking to publisise these documents and they will not change my opinion.
  Jen12 // 22 Sep, 2008 / 04:40:06
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The court in this country does not want to see evidence; our government is willing to send an innocent citizen off to a foreign country where they beat people for the answers they want to hear. We have to scream from the roof tops and show the world the evidence we have, because our court does not want to know, we shouldn't have to do this, but we are forced to, to protect our innocent Andrew. Both the Welsh and Greek police disclosed the case file to the Symeou family therefore is their property and can show who they like and publish it where they like. The Private eye proves how ridiculous the 'so called' evidence against Andrew is, they are a neutral party, they have seen the Greek and Welsh case file and have formed their own opinion. It is down to one judge to make the decision of whether Andrew is extradited or not, then it should be down to the Greek and British police to FINALLY ask Andrew, ‘where were you that night?’
  Campaign // 23 Sep, 2008 / 10:50:00
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Fair enough, not a lot i can say to that, you have made some very good points. It is just i have never seen evidence be aired so publically and was quite stunned. I now understand why you did it and i believe that if i were in your position i wouldn't think twice about doing the same.
  Jen12 // 24 Sep, 2008 / 03:35:23
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I believe anyone would, in these situations its extremely difficult to fight against a countries authority without being able to speak in a british court. But at least on Tuesday the prosicutions "evidence" is going to proved bollocks.
  Charles Watson // 24 Sep, 2008 / 07:14:58
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This whole situation is terrible it needs to be big news now. This EAW can not continue, a very stupid law. Oh yeh, and the investigating officer was born in 87? Thats laughable. The Hiles family must be devistated on how this has been dealt with, in regards to the corrupt investigation and dodgy hospital care which probably was the real reason the boys dead. Such a horrible situation to be in for the Hiles family.
  Sarah Richards // 25 Sep, 2008 / 08:56:10
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How can you say the hospital care is the real reason 'the boy' is dead? That is a terrible thing to say! Sure, the bad care at the hospital may have contributed to his eventual death but that is really beyond the point, he should never have needed to go to hospital in the first place! Somebody killed him, it is terrible to downgrade a persons death like that. How can you sympathise with a family who have lost their son in the same message as basically saying their sons death was caused by nothing more than 'dodgy hospital care?'
  Jen12 // 25 Sep, 2008 / 10:27:16
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The boy needed life support and he had to wait for that long? Better hospital care and the boy would probably be alive I say. To them he was just another drunk tourist. Terrible. I didn't say it was nothing more, obviously he was punched off a stage, better hospital care and he probably would still be breathing. Well, you may be fine with that level of treatment but i certainly wouldn't be for my hemorrhaging son. People have survived hemorrhages you know, its a matter of treatment.
  Sarah Richards // 26 Sep, 2008 / 13:50:07
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You make a fair point sarah, but theres nothing that can be done now, the hospital care is a whole other issue! However, I don't see what the hospital care has to do with sympathising with the family though...How could you not sympathise with a family losing a son in these ridiculous conditions. Jen you say odd things you know!
  Charles Watson // 26 Sep, 2008 / 21:01:27
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Ok, you say it is a different issue, but the police are covering for the night clubs and hospital. In my opinion it is all relevant and just shows that our country shouldnt share a treaty with countries with such corruption. Theres no argument here because look what has happened. For some reason Jen thinks its ok for a countries police to not only cover up the fact that the hospital didnt give Jonny the right care, and also create statements implicating the wrong person under duress. So "apparently" it ok for us to send british teenagers to foreign prisons for up to 18 months now with no evidence, only evidence of corruption. Jen you have absolutely no argument here, I think the best thing to do is wait and see what happens after the hearing. I wish your friends family could find justice, but unfortunetly it isn't going to happen. Maybe if the police did their job......
  Sarah Richards // 27 Sep, 2008 / 13:29:37
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Will you just please accept that i did not know Jonathan! I would be proud if i did, from what i read he sounded to be an amazing guy but i don't know anyone connected with the Hiles family, i live hundreds of miles from Cardiff so please stop implying that i am lying. If what happened to Jonathan happened to your son i think you would want to see the person who put him in hospital in the first place be punished. As Charles says, the hospital treatment is a different issue, something that is certainly a serious issue but nevertheless it is not what this case is about. I hope that justice is seen to tomorrow, whether that means Symeou is extradited or not.
  Jen12 // 29 Sep, 2008 / 03:44:10
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What do you mean you hope justice is seen to tomorrow whether symeou is extradited or not? That makes no sense. If what happened to Jon happened to my son I would want the correct person be punished, and to be frank if the accused made the claims we have then I would listen and not hold on to something not real. The reason you have come across to have known the Hiles family in this forum is because you care far too much and it shows. It's ok if you do know and support them, you don't need to admit it. But how come you think Zante police are so great? How are you going to react when it is heard in a court tomorrow and our claims are confirmed? Are you going to come up with something even more stupid or maybe realise that we are not the bad guys only here to help. Remember, we know the truth, and the truth is that if Symeou is extradited there will be no justice, only ruining an innocent life. Sympathising with a family is one thing, but going down for manslaughter for no reason is another. You have to understand how hard the situation is, do you think we want to do this? We have to because we can't let it happen. The Symeou's are good people just like the Hiles and do not deserve this. And you are right, Jonny did seem like a really nice guy, im very sure Andrew and Jonny would have got along if they did cross paths. If only you knew Andrew. Its so so so hard to protest innocence when a countries police have manufactured statements, and hard knowing its breaking a families hearts on the way. All we want is justice of Andrew and justice for Jonny's family. They deserve it.
  Charles Watson // 29 Sep, 2008 / 05:46:53
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It does make sense, i hope that the right decision is made so justice can be served. So if Andrew is innocent and does not get extradited the justice will be that the wrong person is not going to be sentenced, but if he is guilty the justice will be that the correct person will be sentenced. Why is it strange then that i care about the Hiles family without knowing them? I do care about them, my brother is the same age as Jonathan and i couldn't even imagine what hell my family would go through if we were in the same position as the Hiles family. I never said the Zante police were great.
  Jen12 // 29 Sep, 2008 / 07:04:06
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Well, theres another another month before we hear a verdict. Imagine your brother came back from zante and a year later was in court for manslaughter and may be extradited to Greece! How about that?
  Charles Watson // 01 Oct, 2008 / 06:41:11
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I imagine next month it will get put back another month, then another, then another. Well that is probably one of the silliest comments I have ever read, would I rather my brother come back from Zante dead or arrested? Not really in the same league is it now?
  Jen12 // 02 Oct, 2008 / 03:39:20
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Erm did I say that? Obviously anyone would rather be in Symeou's situation that Hiles. That goes without saying.....Who would want their brother to die on holiday....who would want their brother accused of manslaughter and extradited to Greece? Its not a competition Jen. It probably was your brother who died who knows who "Jen" is. You don't need to justify yourself to me i genuinly don't care. Andrew didn't punch Jonny, i wouldn't be surprised if he wanted to punch you though!!!! That wasn't a threat don't get excited "Jen". Listen, just chill out about the whole Jonny Hiles thing if you don't know him your getting far too kean i think. Im sure you have your own life problems to be dealing with no need to butt into other peoples. That ok?...or are you going to write back another excited stupid message again?
  Charles Watson // 02 Oct, 2008 / 10:21:50
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I wasn't butting in as much as giving my opinion originally and since then i just keep getting told i know Jonathan, am stupid etc when really i just believe Andrew should be extradited. Sorry it is not what you, or Andrew wanted to hear. Yeah the punching me think probably is not the best thing to say given the seriousness of the situation your friend is in.
  Jen12 // 03 Oct, 2008 / 03:28:02
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Very serious, maybe not the best thing to say but you are a no body so it doesn't matter, and your opinion doesn't matter.
  Charles Watson // 03 Oct, 2008 / 07:03:50
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Nice.
  Jen12 // 03 Oct, 2008 / 10:06:22
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Nice and true
  Charles Watson // 10 Oct, 2008 / 11:31:55
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Gosh you come across as very immature. I am somebody enough to give one more signature to justice for jonny thus one less for your friend. Thus my opinion matters to the justice for Jonny campaign.
  Jen12 // 11 Oct, 2008 / 14:19:23
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